It's also a bit sus that someone creates an account just to bash them, when they themselves are already doing a great job to make it look like a scam.

Can you plase give more information about the scams(not opinions about scam but actual scams where he was exposed) this guy committed?

Who has the burden of proof here?

This is absolutely a scam.

Obviously those who claim to be a scam have the burden of proof. Guilty until proven innocent is not a thing, it’s the other way around.

You have no idea how scams work, do you? Visit this website [1] by the CEO and tell me it's not a scam. Tell me there exists some magical algorithm, where I give you my money and you promise me to 2x it and give it back. Please do tell me that.

[1] https://www.definancetechnologies.com/

I don’t think you understand how startups work.

In startups 2x isn’t enough, you usually expect 100x or 1000x returns. That’s the main idea behind investing: You give your money to someone who may have better use of it so you may get it back multiple but may also lose it.

As for the website you linked it appears to be promoting a trading bot and I don’t see any promise of guaranteed 2x returns, which would have been a scam. Maybe I missed it, can you point it out?

No, I do know how they work. Normal startups close the second they become unprofitable because investors don't like losing money. Or find someone that's willing to pull your sinking ship up (a buyout). Also, if you intentionally lose investors' money, they have the right to sue you for damages. Losing hundreds of thousands of dollars is pretty normal in failing startups, but it's not like they don't have any value. There's a difference between a half-baked legitimate product and a snake oil. However, losing tens of millions of dollars is not normal.

> guaranteed 2x returns, which would have been a scam

They haven't written 2x, but they have promised profits (which is more than 1x): "Sit Back and Watch Your Wealth Grow". That's literally a Ponzi scheme. They're no Medallion Fund because if the algorithm was actually working they wouldn't need to attract people to get more money.

Maybe you should get off HN from time to time and face a reality check.

> Normal startups close the second they become unprofitable because investors don't like losing money

Completely and demonstrably wrong. Startups lose money all the time, thats the idea behind taking other people’s money. Go check out how much money Amazon, Uber, OpenAI and pretty much all startups lost before becoming profitable or are still losing.

I’m sorry I see you are clueless. I wouldn’t be arguing with you any further.

Before you post any further I'd highly recommend watching this series. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFKhprphIAA

You just don't get to spend tens of millions just because.

Good to know mr. investor.

I have this bridge.. it's for sale, interested?

Here's the CEO Marko Lehtimäki selling his magic AGI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilgJKjiDLV8 :D

He's been a busy beaver!

It should be said that in the LinkedIn post announcing this the clams are much more moderate. Like “10% along what we consider to be AGI” and “lots of work left to do” if I remember correctly. How is that different from any other R&D company working on AI? They all claim to be on the path to AGI in some form

Thank you for sharing this, relevant context...

I don't know about that, the last 4 years everyone is selling magical AI and AGI is around the corner. Including every single top 10 rich people.

Was this AI proven to be any more fake Than Sam Altman, Elon Musk or Dario Amodei's one? Did he took similar level of money and delivered less than the promised?

What's the scam exactly? They don't seem to claim AGI anyway, they say Artificial Super intelligence which is like every AI company claim.

You seem to be on a mission against this CEO, maybe you can clarify a bit more about the scams you believe he is committing?

ASI is one step higher than AGI.

According to whom?

AGI is human, general level. ASI is super human level. Says so in the acronym itself.

Completely false. There is nothing about humans in these acronyms.

With a bit of reading between the letters it seems obvious that for us anthropocentrics, humans are the implicit baseline measure for intelligence.

Here's a Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superintelligence#Feasibility_...

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oh that's a great insult

Srsly. So it's all bogus then?

Yep, so it seems!

Definitely a scam.

Unfortunately that's not the same as VTT.

VTT would be more like "National Institute of Scientific Research"

Well there's this press release they would publish a report: https://www.vttresearch.com/en/news-and-ideas/donut-lab-comm... with as author the same name on the digital signature "Petri Söderena" for Organisation "Teknologian tutkimuskeskus VTT" and the chain is attested by "DVV Organisational Certificates - G4E" which is on the EU/EEA trusted list: https://eidas.ec.europa.eu/efda/trust-services/browse/eidas/... (by name and key signature). Looks like a legit VTT document to me.

It says its sign by this guy: https://www.vttresearch.com/en/news-and-ideas/petri-soderena...

He has an e-mail address and a phone number, I doubt that if the report is falsified it won't come out.

Elon Musk sells self driving cars since 10 years that don't self drive but his cars are actually decent cars and his rockets are revolutionary. Also, who isn't selling magical AGI since the last 4 years?

I think i will judge the battery and the magical AGI separately. The guy also sells magical motors that appear to be real with people riding motorbikes with those motors.