I once heard that the USB naming is misleading by design so that vendors could still sell older generations accessories they had in stock. The USB-IF just rebrands the old ones to make them sound current.

Imagine the following naming:

  USB 3.0 / USB 3.1 Gen 1 / USB 3.2 Gen 1 -> USB 3 5Gbps
  USB 3.1 / USB 3.1 Gen 2 / USB 3.2 Gen 2 -> USB 3 10Gbps
  USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 -> USB 3 20Gbps

Isn't that much clearer? I think USB 4 is finally going to the right direction.

> I think USB 4 is finally going to the right direction.

USB 4 is actually going into an even worse direction. USB 4 = Thunderbolt 4, except everything is optional. e.g. USB 4 might not even support DP Alt mode. Thunderbolt 4 always will.

Even backwards compatibility is optional in USB4. There are USB4 devices (SSDs at least) that will not function when connected to USB 3 ports.

I have a USB hub that I bought recently, that has very nice markings on it that are almost like you say :)

I connects via USB4 to the host, and has the following markings on its ports:

- Power in/USB 10Gbps

- USB 10Gbps

- USB 10Gbps

- 8K HDMI

Pretty happy with this one so far.

I got a jCreate5 hub at clearance from an Office Max (rip) and the ports are labeled just like this, no futzing on which port is the PD

I think this practice is rather blatantly what you say. The same thing with HDMI forum folding HDMI 2.0 into HDMI 2.1. They made the new 2.1 features optional, therefore manufacturers were able to call their 2.0 devices 2.1 without actually supporting the 2.1 features. AMD has been recently doing similar things, releasing “new” generation of mobile processors where half of them are just rebrands of the older generation.

Or it could be: 5 Gbps --> USB 3 10 Gbps --> USB 3.1 20 Gbps --> USB 3.2

Higher number = better

I like their openness on hardware design. They open sourced their design under CC-BY-4.0 (surprisingly no NC!) in hope that it could enable reuse [1].

However, the whole thing is overpriced. Quoting kingsleyopara's comment 4 days ago [2],

  ...matching specs it comes out as more expensive than the MBP - even worse when you factor in potential discounts/sales which framework doesn't offer.

  Framework 13 Pro: £2064 (Ultra X7 358H, 16GB, 1TB, default ports, no adapter)

  Framework 13 Pro: £2264 (Ultra X7 358H, 32GB, 1TB, default ports, no adapter)

  MacBook Pro 14: £1699 (M5, 16GB, 1TB, no adapter)

  MacBook Pro 14: £2099 (M5, 32GB, 1TB, no adapter)

  MacBook Pro 14: £2199 (M5 Pro, 24GB, 1TB, no adapter) - added as I think it’s an even better deal

[1]: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47852620

Cost of the Macbook Pro 14 in 2031: another £1999

Cost of the Framework 13 upgrade kit in 2031: £499

The point of the upgradability and openness of the design is that you only have to pay that cost once, instead of every time you buy a laptop. How much will it cost to upgrade a MacBook's RAM if you decide you need more after a year or two? £2099?

Well you can sell your old MacBook. And they hold their value pretty well. So I don’t know if framework would actually come out ahead financially.

What’s the advantage of buying a used MacBook if, since they hold their value well, it won’t be much cheaper than a new one?

Because they are indeed still cheaper? I'm not sure what you're getting at with your question. You can look up values for older Macs if you just don't want to believe it …

Why wouldn’t I want to “believe it”? Isn’t that the premise my entire question is based on? I’m not sure what you’re getting at with your misdirection.

They also hold their performance well so for some people it’s worth saving a few hundred bucks plus sales tax by buying a used one.

Its like a Tesla, their values only go up. Stop asking questions, this is a legitimate investment.

An investment lol

Yup. Primary reason I just pulled the trigger for framework.

They've proven that they'll keep upgradability going over a few generations which means I'll be buying all my updates from them.

Repair cost is worth noting too. If your keyboard breaks:

Macbook Pro - You pay for a new topcase assembly

Framework Pro - You pay a new keyboard

Comparing Apples to Oranges.

Apple only makes disposable devices now. They're a megacorp can negotiate massive discounts at every stage of the supply chain.

I've helped several people in the last few years set up new Macs, replacing ones that were only 1-2 years old, because they ran out of storage.

Additionally, the comparison doesn't even hold true when you need more than the base configs from Apple, given their ridiculous upgrade pricing. I'm writing this on a $6,000USD M3 MBP with 128gb/4tb. It would have been substantially cheaper to build out on a Framework.

> Apple only makes disposable devices now.

This is genuinely hilarious to say this with a straight face

IMO it’s a reasonable point to make when compared to something like the Framework. And it took legal action to get them to offer battery replacements for iPhones, I don’t think you can really claim they’re passionate about component reuse.

They are disposable, they just last way longer than any of their competitors. They are not on the level of upgradability as the Framework (anymore).

> "[...] they just last way longer than any of their competitors."

Citations, please.

In the meantime, an anecdote: My oldest modern-era (64-bit) daily driver is one I use heavily since 15 years. An HP, 16 or 17 years old. The only component that ever caked-out in that bird was the original mechanical hard drive, which died just this year. Similar experiences with IBM/Lenovo, Panasonic and Fujitsu. Apple laptops I don't even look at for they don't offer anything I need.

Another anecdote: I had an HP Laptop 15 years ago that only lasted 1 year.

Even putting aside the whole repairability thing, with the Mac you’re stuck with Apple Silicon. Apple’s processors are mostly awesome, of course, but using one does mean you’re stuck with macOS—Asahi Linux seems to be a ways away from M5 support.

What sells me on it is I get to take a spare Gen4 m.2 ssd out of my gaming PC I wasn't fully utilizing instead of paying for 1TB of storage.

Being able to drive the price down by re-using parts I already have is a pretty big selling point, IMO.

Also, I think Apple is benefitting from scale, since they're able to maintain the (usually too high) storage and memory prices they've had for years. At this moment in time, framework have the misfortune of being forced to pass inflated wholesale prices onto the consumer.

Make this comparison one calendar year ago and the F13 Pro could very easily beat the MBP on price spec-for-spec.

The MacBook's aren't a fungible alternative as they lock you into MacOS effectively and don't use Intel and AMD processors.

Also, I'm not sure what a good alternative is these days to the Framework 13 Pro. I DO NOT USE GLOSS SCREENS on productivity laptops(the only reason I have a laptop). Heck, my LG OLED monitor and top-end Samsung s95f OLED TV are matte as well due to the lighting in my space; I like light!

That means any time I'm looking at laptops I've having to re-asses the landscape because year-to-year manufactures flip-flop between screen finish even in their productivity lines. The Asus Zenbook looks good, but it's all gloss screens. I'm looking at the latest crop of Thinkbook and they don't even have the AMD 350 as an option right now; and I'm not sure about the display finish.

It's not so easy to compare like-for-like when it's apples and oranges.

This always seems to come up in discussions about Framework.

The extra cost is more than made up in not having to buy a full new computer every few years, and in being able to swap out the keyboard for $40 if it breaks.

SSD and RAM prices are wacky nowadays, but when I got my DIY framework 13, it was MUCH cheaper than the apple equivalent if you wanted more than the minimum specs (in my case, 32GB RAM + 2TB SSD). Main downside was software/firmware that didn't work well with Framework hardware

I would still get a Framework rather than a MacBook. A couple of hundred dollars for the openness, repairability, and upgradability is a great deal.

my main eyebrow raise on price comes from pre-built being cheaper than DIY version

how does that even work?

I mean, yeah. There's a reason other companies don't focus on modularity or repairability. Its not free.

We're not the target audience for this thing, but I'm at least happy there's a way people can put their money where their mouth is.

Repairability often comes at the cost of size, weight, production cost, or a combination of them.

I had to sell my 2016 MacBook Pro because Apple made a defective keyboard design and I had no recourse other than having it replaced with the same defective design. This repair required the replacement of the entire top case of the computer including a number of unrelated components. Without the widespread negative press and repair program, this repair would have cost hundreds of dollars.

I am willing to pay more for a product made by a company whose respect for its customers manifests itself in the design of the product.

I am willing to pay more for a product that has first-class support for non-commercial operating systems that aren’t trying to collect data and sell services.

Lately it’s become obvious to me that Linux is a better desktop experience than macOS or Windows. Liquid Glass ruined my Mac, and Windows is…well, I only ever ran it so I could play games.

Sure, Apple is cheaper, because they make more money selling you services than selling Macs and iPads combined. These are services that are advertised to you within basic settings panels of the operating system, including apps like News that cannot be uninstalled (even Microsoft allows you to uninstall apps like that!)

I don’t want to pay less for a Mac that feels slick during the warranty period but has no upgrade path and no reasonably priced way to repair even minor issues.

> the whole thing is overpriced

Economy of scale... they cannot make (or sell) anywhere near as many as Apple does, so of course it's going to be more expensive. Just like that "Made in USA" grill brush that costs 75 dollars (but guess where the machines that make it come from).

IMO, Apple is already the standard of overpriced compared to other laptop vendors, and Framework is even more overpriced than the overpricer!

Macbooks were not overpriced since M1 Air released in 2020. Of course Apple was not competing in low-end segment back then, but $1200-$1400 M1 just outperformed all the competitors for years. Now with Neo release they basically outplayed everyone in low-end segment.

Framework offer is completely different - they sell you upgradable computer that supports your right to repair.

I mean yeah they’re right but it’s not like the difference is particularly staggering. And unfortunately having control and quality runs a premium these days.

Plus depending on what you’re upgrading it could very well save you money in the long run, as the parts you can replace or upgrade yourself in an MBpro are few and far between. The few things you can replace often cost an arm and a leg and require way more technical expertise than a framework demands.

Also, Mac lock in. Not something to lightly ignore. Framework will run basically anything except MacOS.

I'm not hating on Framework and I'm genuinely rooting for them but the last part is a bit of a weird PRO to me.

What else can it run besides Windows and insert-long-list-of-Linux-distros-here compared to your run of the mill laptop? Can it run OpenBSD, NetBSD or FreeBSD without issues? How about Haiku if we're feeling crazy?

Something that I think is a better PRO (if we're talking operating systems) is that from what I understand (though I might be wrong) is that you could use the Storage Expansion Card and have Windows installed on it for those moments when you have to boot into Windows in anger due to some use case not served by Linux (Adobe Reader I'm looking at you). Now that's nifty to me.

I do not have a framework so I have not looked at the entire list of what OS’s it can support as I’m only interested in pop and bazzite these days. It may very well support those you listed

Yeah, I've checked and I came across this thread https://community.frame.work/t/alternative-oses/71944/4 on the Framework forums that confirms that people are actively interested in running more than Windows and Linux. The future is bright.

RE: Pop and Bazzite

I'm really excited for COSMIC, did you find it good enough to daily drive yet? I've been watching from the sidelines but I haven't taken the plunge to try it.

Not familiar at all! Need to take a look. First glance seems neat

> ...on the read side most browsers prompt the user every single time.

I don't think that is the case. Google Docs, Office 365, and Notion all function without requiring repeated user permissions.

I can assure you they’ve correctly described the problem and are correct regarding buffering and user gesture requirements.

The platforms you listed are all primarily text-based and the interaction lives in the DOM with happy paths defined. Still, you will find that clipboard media with a MIME type will prompt you with a Google provided modal to paste a very specific way to get around the permissions model in Google Docs etc…

An RDP interface is not a text box with features on top, the standing expectations for those existing behaviors do not apply. Namely clipboard, and any I/O for that matter. For example, the linked repo uses a protocol bridge (I/O) to support the RDP protocol from a browser, because “the browser speaks protocols” is a true general statement, but absolutely doesn’t apply when you actually need to get something non-trivial done.

At its core, when someone points to the Google Chrome desktop icon and says “that’s the internet” there’s really no point in discussing the nuance in most cases, because anything non-trivial immediately invalidates that understanding of the world and reaching that point organically is far more important than it being explained to them preemptively.

They are correct, because the nuance applies. Welcome to the un-happy path!

Google Docs has the same issue. They ask you to install of Google Docs Offline chrome extension to fix it.

https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/google-docs-offline...

> Note: This extension is also used to make advanced copy & paste functionality available in Google Docs, Sheets and Slides.

There's something about keyboard shortcuts - they work. But somehow right-click and copy requires add-ons.

They published model weights on Hugging Face. Both of them are MIT-licensed.

DeepSeek-V4-Flash: https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V4-Flash

DeepSeek-V4-Pro: https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V4-Pro

I thought Q4_K_M is the standard. Why did you choose the 6-bit variant? Does it generate better input?

There is no standard.

The higher quantization - the better results, but more memory is needed. Q8 is the best.

FP32 is best, although I wonder if there isn’t something better I don’t know about. Q8 is for the most part equal to FP16 in practical terms by being smart about what is quantized, but iirc always slower than FP16 and FP8.

Some Opus models were free on Copilot, and in my country you cannot attach a repo to Gemini, that is limited to their premium offerings.

Which Opus models were free on Copilot?

Haiku, right?

VLC is GPL licensed and open source. Maybe that's enough since you could compile it yourself anyway?

The adage was "If you're not paying for the product, you are the product." Now enterprises are paying to become the product. That's ridiculous.

Nope. You can never verify they run the same code from their repo. You cannot physically access their system after all.

I definitely have not had that experience, although use FF for personal, various work, and various educational places.

None of those have required me to install a particular extension..

Of course thats not to deny your experience!

The only time profiles ever come into it, for me, is using web driver, playwright, or whatever.

I guess maybe the usage stats dont support making the profile selector better.

But also, maybe its a thing they would accept a change for?

This is not meant to be an alternative for Chrome's profile switching. It's a different use case entirely.

As you yourself mention, Firefox has actual profile support, which may not be as good as Chrome's, but at least compare like for like.

Myself the profile support is the absolute worst thing about Chrome. I just want to log into some web site, I don't want to fight with the profiles to get things done.

For those few applications where I really would need profiles I will just open a different browser, so I still keep Edge/Chrome/Opera around for that rare situation. I don't need something that complicates my life every single click but it is the whole ideology of the Google Economy that they want you to spend 1% of attention on things that matter to you and 99% on things that don't.

Firefox has a new Chrome-like profiles support as of v149.

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/profile-management