I discovered that if I only consumed caffeine when I had a Migraine headache, that it was the most effective medicine I could take provided I didn't already have a tolerance built up so I gave up caffeine in my 20s.
Frankly, it was a lot harder than I thought it would be. I was plagued with minor but persistent headaches for almost a month and was exhausted most of that time since I was used to grabbing a cup of coffee to get me started in the morning. I avoided caffeine for almost 15 years until about a year ago when I finally found a medicine that has successfully prevented Migraine (completely). Now and then I enjoy a cup of coffee (or a Coke -- I'm a skinny guy) but I've not gotten to the point of it being a regular thing.
The difference is huge. I am convinced that Caffeine is a much more powerful stimulant than we coffee drinkers think it is. When I am feeling tired, a cup of coffee will completely wake me up and I'm full of energy. I can't see how I managed to drink two of these every morning and still barely feel the effects. If I have two cups now, I'm overwhelmed with jittery feelings, my mind races, and I go from the heightened concentration of one cup to not being able to concentrate at all due to my mind going in every direction at once.
I inadvertently quit coffee a while ago after a bad flu, and not drinking it for a week. What it helped me discover is that I was not getting ANYWHERE near enough sleep. I thought I was functioning fine on 5 hours, but when I didn't have coffee, I was hitting a wall after lunch. When I started getting 7-8 hours, I felt great without coffee, and I started making progress in the gym and losing more weight. Caffeine is supposed to help with those things, but it was actually masking bigger issues for me.
>I am convinced that Caffeine is a much more powerful stimulant than we coffee drinkers think it is.
Absolutely. I really don't think I'm some sort of outlier, and when I'm not in a cycle of dependence on caffeine and have a cup of coffee I feel an intense high. I'd compare the euphoria to being very drunk. I definitely feel awake, alert, and very focused -- but I can also tell that I'm not using the exact same kind of judgement as I do sober.
I had some time off between jobs once, and quit caffeine cold-turkey. I slept for 14 hours a day for the first 3 nights. I felt normal on about day 6. Now if I have a cup of coffee, I am wide awake until about 3 hours after I usually fall asleep.
Interestingly enough, this led me to discover that A&W cream soda is caffeinated; with my previous caffeine tolerance I would not have been so jittery after drinking one, and surely enough on the back of the can was a "contains caffeine" label.
No the op, but for me 50mg nortriptyline daily is the no-migraine magic. Been thru most of the other available meds and nothing worked, except zomig, which you take after onset and for me, relived the pain, but none of the other symptoms. Nortriptyline is a really old tricyic antidepressant/nerve pain med, with pretty low risk of interaction/bad reaction. Without it I have clusters of 2-6 migraines over 4-5 days every 3-6 weeks. If you don't get them regularly, you may not want to have to take something every day, but if you get them with any frequency, it's a million times worth it. I can miss up to 2 sequential doses without problem but if I miss 3 or 4 I will get a migraine every time.
Also, since starting a low-carb keto diet two years ago, I haven't had a single migraine (I used to get 2-3 per month, both painful ones and visual auras). When I was a pediatric neurology prof a few years ago, a keto diet was standard of care for the kids, and the department was starting research into keto for chronic migraines. Give it a try!
For those unaware: Excedrin's principal ingredients are acetaminophen (Tylenol) + aspirin + caffeine. Each pill contains about 65 mg of caffeine (roughly equivalent to a shot of espresso).
I had the same result after switching to a keto diet 10 months ago. Do you know if there are any research papers on this? I was really surprised how effective the change in diet was because I did it on a whim without receiving medical advice.
Not exactly research paper, and not migraine but it was mentioned in a ted(x?) talk linked from HN a week ago or so IIRC. The talk was about keto and cancer but touched into keto against epilepsy as well. I think the Charlie Foundation or something was mentioned as well.
Maybe some of that research can hold some pointers?
I have had some luck reducing the frequency of my migraines with high-dose vitamin B2[1], around 400mg a day. Caffeine (I only drink tea) is helpful for recovery from my migraines.
Thanks for sharing, I drink a ton of tea, black tea has about 30 to 60mg of caffeine in it. So I find that caffeine doesn't do much for me, but the Vitamin B2 is interesting, i'll try it!
I've had Migraine for the last 20 years of my life, on and off, about monthly in the summer/winter and 4-8/month in the spring and fall. The frequency of the problem actually caused me to write a Visual Studio plug-in so I could use my monitor in low-contrast in a dark bedroom.
I didn't share the medication in the original post because there are a lot of caveats, but I take Depakote at 250mg twice daily and it works completely without side-effects (same dosage for 1.5 years and not a single instance of Migraine).
I happened upon this cure by accident, though, due to my body's intolerance for a myriad of common medicines used for Migraine treatment (and nothing OTC worked except Caffeine)
I cannot take Triptans (Maxalt/Imitrex). They work, but with huge mood side-effects. I was prescribed an anti-depressant (name escapes me) that showed promise in Migraine prevention. I got a Migraine headache while I was taking the anti-depressant and took a Maxalt (OKed by the doctor) and was hospitalized with Serotonin Syndrom. I cannot take anti-depressants, I learned later, due to my genetics[1].
I've seen many specialists but it wasn't until this hospital visit (on a holiday) followed by a misdiagnosis, that I was prescribed a rather high dose of Depakote (1000mg/day). It was prescribed in August and when I went through September without Migraine (this has never happened according to my log), I brought it to the attention of my headache specialist. He reduced the dosage at my request (Depakote is prescribed for BiPolar--an illness I do not have--and at the original dose, I felt emotionally flat[2]). At 500mg/day (2 doses), I don't have a single side-effect (other than headache relief, which is not why it is usually prescribed) and have been on that dose for 1.5 years without a single headache.
My headache specialist said that some of his other patients got relief from this medicine but that it's hit/miss. My experience is that this drug is basically everything you'd ever want in a treatment -- side-effect free, and works 100% of the time for me.
[1] Genesight test indicates that the medicine will remain in my system far longer than it should. I strongly recommend paying for this since it would have saved me a trip to the hospital. All of the SSRI medicines are in the high risk category for me. Glad I've never experienced depression!
[2] Nothing like the movies where a guy walks around with no expression on their face staring blankly. The best way I can describe it is that when something would happen and my wife would react, I'd feel like "Data from Star Trek" not understanding why she was reacting so strongly/emotionally. At this dose, I have the same level of intensity I'm used to.
I've been fooling around with caffeine medicinally as a decongestant when I have a cold. Psuedoephedrine being strangely hard to acquire in these meth days. I've had excellent results. I believe my tolerance from tea drinking lets my brain sleep but the stimulant effects none the less let my sinuses clear.
Aside from jittery feelings, I am actually physically jittery if I drink too much caffeine so some hobbies involving couple square mm surface mount components have to be scheduled with tea or energy drink consumption. Two cups of nice black tea and I'm not hand soldering 0402 components that day, although its easy when I'm "sober".
The funny thing is that if you asked people how much caffeine is in a cup of coffee vs a can of redbull I'd bet a lot of people would say the redbull. But a single cup of coffee actually has, on average, maybe twice as much caffeine. People don't realize how much caffeine coffee has, it's a ridiculous amount. Pretty much the only beverages you can get at starbucks that has significantly less caffeine than an 8oz redbull are the teas, hot chocolate, smoothies, and decaf.
I think people underestimate even more the amount of caffeine in green tea. Some kind of green teas, especially the like of Kabusecha/Gyokuro, have way more caffeine than coffee. Up to three times as much in a cup of tea than in an expresso in the case of Gyokuro...
Interesting that you mention migraines. I get occasional (very rare) migraines, and my mother and brother also get them, although they have it worse than I do. My mother used to take caffeine to make a migraine go away, but she believed that the continued use of caffeine (even only to mitigate migraines) made the migraines worse in the long run. It had something to do with the effect of caffeine on blood vessel size, but I don't remember the details. She has given up caffeine almost entirely and switched to large daily doses of vitamin K on the advice of her physician.
I've tried to figure out if she was right but all the literature on the subject seems to say the same thing: "There's a lot we don't understand about how caffeine affects the brain, and there's a lot we don't understand about migraines."
For what it's worth, I mostly gave up caffeine fifteen years ago. My friends would have caffeinated drinks but at five o'clock when the party is dying down, I'd be the only one left with any energy. Anecdotally, it felt like caffeine didn't give you energy, but it let you borrow energy. (Later in life I discovered caffeine could also trigger hypomania.)
Now I just use caffeine to medicate my lack of interest in my current job.
the continued use of caffeine (even only to mitigate migraines)
I agree with that statement. It would reduce them by about 80% but during the fall/spring when I would get many in a row, they'd be more intense and caffeine would work less effectively.
Unfortunately, with pain, there are a lot of variables at play, here, so I'm not sure if it was tolerance and worse headaches or if it was perception that they were worse as a result of fatigue from the "OMG, another one?!" For me, it wasn't such a dramatic difference that I could convince myself that the caffeine was not working any longer. It was never "nearly gone" vs "barely helps" for me, but a feeling like they were getting, maybe, 10% worse each time. Duration was also, unfortunately, pretty consistent around 2-3 days (with day 3 being nearly symptom free).
I discovered that if I only consumed caffeine when I had a Migraine headache, that it was the most effective medicine I could take provided I didn't already have a tolerance built up so I gave up caffeine in my 20s.
I have heard the same. Very potent.
I've also detoxed from Caffiene in the past to reset, and been amazed at how little I can get by with.
I limit myself to one cup a day and I feel like it has very little impact on my alertness and energy levels. Do you think just one cup a day already makes your body build a tolerance?
Yes, your body will build a tolerance to any amount of anything you put into it, if you're doing so frequently. It's easier to form a tolerance to small quantities than large quantities. The best way to avoid forming a tolerance is to use large, infrequent doses. In other words, drink a few energy drinks once a week for an all-nighter instead of cup of coffee every morning. Heavy, infrequent use also makes it easier to reflect on how your drug usage is impacting your life. The same logic applies to most things, although with some other drugs there are additional factors that come into play and complicate matters.
> The best way to avoid forming a tolerance is to use large, infrequent doses. In other words, drink a few energy drinks once a week for an all-nighter instead of cup of coffee every morning.
Not that you should do an all-nighter in the first place.
I've given up caffeine for Lent[1]. It's been hard.
Beforehand, I knew I had a bad coffee habit. In a typical day I'd drink, maybe 6 or 7 mugs of strong coffee. I'd tried to cut down many times, but never succeeded; there just seemed to be too many reasons in my life to have another coffee.
So when Ash Wednesday (the start of Lent) came, I thought, "Now's the time to quit."
The first day was fine. I didn't notice anything. I guess I was still flushing the remaining caffeine out of its system.
The second day certainly wasn't. I had a headache, and felt tired, dizzy and confused.
The headache didn't last long, but the other symptoms persisted for about ten days. In hindsight, I should have consulted a physician before attempting this, because it could have aggravated other medical conditions I have.
I now have twelve days left of my caffeine fast. Do I feel healthier? Do I sleep better? No, not really; I feel pretty much the same as I did before, but without the urge to drink coffee all the time.
I think the real benefits will come when I let myself drink coffee again. I intend to only use it when I really need a pick-me-up. The less often I use caffeine, the more effective it will be.
[1] Lent is a period of 46 days' self-denial observed in many Christian churches.
I've heard from many people on HN and elsewhere individually choosing something to give up for Lent.
In my understanding, the traditional Lenten restrictions in most Christian churches that observe Lent are pre-specified dietary restrictions that are the same for everybody (for example, it was unexpectedly convenient for me as a vegan to visit Eastern Europe because the Eastern Orthodox churches' Lenten fast was similar to veganism).
Is the practice of giving up a personally-selected thing for Lent something that many people have chosen to do individually as a sort of new interpretation of the tradition, or is it now also recommended by some churches?
I can only really speak from the Roman Catholic perspective, but traditionally there are three pillars of Lent: fasting, prayer, and almsgiving. The requirements for fasting have varied over the centuries. The strictest fast is the Black Fast [1], which was regularly observed (I think) sometime around the Early or High Middle Ages. It's similar to the fast observed by the Orthodox, though it intensifies during Holy Week (only bread, salt, herbs, and water allowed). Up until the early twentieth century or so, Catholics were required to fast every day of Lent except Sundays [2] (i.e., take only one full meal a day with two small meals that cannot, combined, form a full meal).
In the modern Roman Catholic Church the fasting requirements have been substantially relaxed. The only requirements are fasting on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday and abstaining from meat on Fridays. The other days of Lent are still penitential days, but the bishops of the region have the authority to determine the form of the penance. In the United States the bishops have stated that it is acceptable to substitute fasting for some other form of penance determined by the individual.
My impression is that the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches still observe a much more rigorous fast, more like the Roman Catholic Church used to a few centuries ago. As a side note, I've always been the most impressed with the Coptic Christians. They observe, by far, the most rigorous fasting schedule. They fast 210 days out of the year! [3]
It has been standard practice in the latin-rite (i.e. western) Roman Catholic church at least since Vatican II. There are also specific dietary restrictions (fasting on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, abstaining from the flesh of land-animals on every Friday during lent).
I know a lot of this changed with Vatican II; in particular the no-meat on Friday rule was previously year-round, and it is now purely during lent, though one is supposed to do some form of abstinence on Fridays year-round.
I had thought that giving up things for Lent was peculiar to the Roman Catholic and Orthodox religions until I chatted with friends in High School (1990s) and found that some Lutheran and Presbyterian denominations also encouraged the practice.
[edit]
I also forgot to mention that a large fraction of Protestant congregations are either not part of any particular denomination, or are part of a denomination that is fairly silent about appropriate ways of daily worship; individuals in those denominations often eclectically adopt forms of worship from other denominations.
My experience as an Orthodox Christian in America is that the Lenten fast is pretty much the same for all Orthodox in being basically vegan. There are also restrictions around the use of oil and wine, but those tend to be not as commonly followed. In addition, for most of the year Orthodox fast similarly on every Wednesday and Friday. Of course, age and medical conditions affect this.
Increased prayer and almsgiving are also part of the Lenten fast; one idea is that the money you would have spent on meat and cheese should instead go towards charity. In my experience, I haven't really found other Orthodox specifically give up a particular thing intentionally, except for incidentally in the sense of spending more time in prayer means less time for video games, for instance. :)
What's most important is achieving self discipline in not being controlled by food. If we fast from meat but "consume" our neighbor through gossip, for instance, then we've missed the whole point.
I can only speak for Roman Catholicism. The only required Lenten restrictions are abstaining from meat on Fridays and fasting on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. These restrictions are for everyone (apart from age and health exceptions).
Traditionally, Catholics choose to do additional self-discipline during Lent. The big three things that the Catholic Church encourages are increases in prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. The fasting part is where people often give up some type of food or drink, like coffee.
So the practice of giving up a personally-selected thing is not required, but it is encouraged and traditionally done as a way to come closer to God and prepare for Easter.
I gave up caffeine for 2 years. Got tired of drinking just water, beer or milk. Sodas and coffee w/milk sugar are too tasty.
All I did to quit was pop advil for a few days. Quitting caffeine wasn't remotely difficult physically. I used to drink 3-4 liters of soda a day, so not some small amount. I quit because I was worried about diabetes even though I was a healthy weight (as per my doctor's instructions).
My experience is pretty much the same. I sleep and function just as well (or badly) without caffeine now as I used to do with several cups of coffee, before I quit (2 years ago). The big bonus for me is in the mornings. I don't need several cups of coffee to wake me up anymore. When I get up I am as awake as I used to be after breakfast.
Be careful when you try to drink it again. One cup of coffee is enough to get me from a hard-to-focus-after-lunch-dip to fully awake and focused. If I drink another cup I become all jittery and have symptoms resembling a minor panic attack.
I've gone cold turkey on caffeine a couple of times - usually I crave chocolate (presumably because of the caffeine). What I've learnt is to be sure to drink other things as otherwise the dehydration makes the headaches far worse.
When I worked in an office I'd drink coffee as an excuse to take a break, switched to fruit teas (careful they're not all caffeine free). Ginger cordial makes a lovely hot drink too.
I weaned myself off of caffeine entirely seven months ago. Being free of caffeine has greatly improved the quality of my sleep and made my mood more even throughout the day. I really appreciate being able to jump straight out of bed in the morning without depending on that coffee to get my brain working.
I tried a couple times to get off caffeine, never worked properly... I don't feel obvious caffeine effects, but I need it to not be a wreck.
Later I discovered I was self-medicating my ADHD...
Now I am taking proper ADHD meds, and this allowed me to greatly reduce my caffeine use (that was wandering into dangerous and expensive territory, with me needing to drink litres of red-bull clones to work), still need it sometimes though, my ADHD meds dosage is still too low it seems (my medic is adjusting my meds still).
Without caffeine + meds I can't do anything properly, I lose random objects (including a cup of coffee! I made myself a coffee yesterday, moved it somewhere in the house, and could not remember where, I spent 5 minutes wandering around looking for where I put my coffee), forget to do stuff, including important stuff, forget to eat/drink water/sleep, and all other sorts of not good behaviour.
I'm with you. I quit caffeine for almost two months last year. About six weeks in, I admitted to myself that I was still feeling shitty and tired, and was having as much trouble focusing as on day one.
Is this 'self-medicating'? Focus and tiredness have always been big problems for me. I scored in the 80th percentile on the Wender Utah Adult ADD test a few years ago. Nothing any doctor has plied me with has worked for more than a few days before tolerance sets in.
IMHO, much of this 'quit caffeine - you'll feel even better without it' is uninformed zeal. Some will, some won't. Mileage will vary.
I've found caffein to be far nicer on my body than my ADHD medication. Unless I am really in a bind, I go to coffee when I need to focus. I'm careful to take a day or two off a week if I can so that my overall consumption never needs to be more than 1 cup/day.
Coupled with L-theanine caffeine has really been a useful tool for me.
> Now I am taking proper ADHD meds
You've replaced one stimulant with another, it seems. The meds don't come along with a bunch of calories, so that's a plus, though ADHD meds do have their own set of side effects.
Do you still live in Brazil? I've read criticisms here on HN, of doctors too eager to diagnose ADHD (specially in children) - did you felt that your doctor was aware of those issues?
I ask because I'm not sure if I have ADHD or just regular anxiety/lack of focus that could be fixed by exercising/meditation/finding another job. And I don't want to go to the doctor to get hooked on drugs I don't need...
And I've been hearing about the ADHD overdiagnosis problem for a while, and I've been staunch that I didn't had ADHD until my life was the shithole that it is now (I am 28, unemployed, don't own any property, have negative net worth, no friends, no romantic partners...)
Then what I found was the opposite, as an adult, seeking for ADHD diagnosis (or diagnosis of whatever I had), led to most doctors spin around in circles trying to find everything that I could have that is NOT ADHD, because they assumed I was just some kind of junkie or someone wanting to cheat tests in university, because here in Brazil all ADHD meds are of highly controlled nature (ie: they are classed the same as Morphine for example).
Eventually I found my current medic... that still is going VEEEERY slow in the dosage, the highest dosage she ever gave me was 1/5 of the maximum, and about 1/3 of what people get on average.
Still, even this low dosage helped, before I had the meds, I reached a point where I was spending more on caffeine than food every day (and this is in a country that exports coffee and erva mate, thus caffeine in general here is really cheap)
> ...they assumed I was just some kind of junkie or someone wanting to cheat tests in university
I live in the US and had the same reaction from doctors. One doctor spoke with me for a few minutes (literally like 5 minutes) and decided I was trying to abuse uppers to gain an edge at school/work, despite having been previously diagnosed with ADD and treated as a teenager (and despite asking for help, not medication). It was a really, really humiliating experience. I eventually was prescribed medication but I've since lost and regained medical insurance, so I no longer have that prescription. I often have difficulty staying on task, but I cope with it myself out of fear of going through that awful process again.
To me it seems that adults seeking help with ADD/ADHD are looked at with immediate suspicion. I always assumed it was a lack of mental health education for doctors in the US, but now I suppose it might be a global phenomenon.
- fewer head aches
- much better sleep
- reduced mid afternoon blahs
- easier wake ups
- ability to use small amounts of caffeine for medicinal purposes. (by itself or to enhance the effects of other drugs)
That's because you're addicted. You're dependent on it to wake up, and when you don't use it, you get withdrawal headaches. You may need to go about a month caffeine free to see the benefits
Or GP may be prone to migraines and potentially doesn't know it... I am and find caffeine pretty good at dulling their effects over multi-day migraines (Which I get fairly regularly).
The frequency of migraines for me is independent of caffeine consumption; I've gones months with no caffeine and suffered though migraines, just as I've gone through months of heavy coffee/tea drinking and suffered (a little less) through them
You're right, I am prone to migraines, or at least I think that's what they are.
I can go without coffee for weeks, have gone 2 months last year. Everything seems fine, but some days, I wake up in the morning with a terrible, terrible headache that fortunately goes away after a rather high dose of paracetamol+aspirin.
Sometimes it occurs in the evening when I come home, seemingly fine, but then bam, hammer to the head.
If I drink coffee regularly, I pretty much never get them...
If it takes longer than a week to be completely free of withdrawal symptoms, there's something else wrong, I'd think. Two or three days is a more normal recovery time.
That wasn't my experience. I had body pains, headaches, chills, and a profound feeling of fatigue for two weeks when I kicked caffeine (at first by accident, and then I ran with it).
I went almost two months without caffeine at the end of last year, I muscled through at first, but about week six I realized I was just as tired as day one.
You have to give it up for about a month to really compare the difference. I speak from experience. Long term after quitting there's no comparison: much easier to wake up and much easier to fall asleep (for me).
If you're comparing how you feel drinking coffee, to how you feel a few days after quitting, then of course the coffee will feel better.
If this doesn't describe your situation, then disregard.
I believe that's a fairly common experience (it was mine too when I quit for a year). Caffeine leads to highs and lows. W/o caffeine and having good sleeping patterns leads to higher average energy level and less highs and lows.
Personally though, I love the taste and enjoy the experience of "waking up" with a cup of coffee over the course of the first 20 minutes of the day.
> Personally though, I love the taste and enjoy the experience of "waking up" with a cup of coffee over the course of the first 20 minutes of the day.
Yep, which is why I switched to decaf. Still the same taste (there are ok decaf coffees out there) but none of the bad effects of excessive caffeine.
(Most decaf still has ~10% of the caffeine of regular coffee, but even with 4 or 5 cups of decaf a day it's not enough for dependency; I get no withdrawal symptoms if I stop for any length of time).
I still drink the odd normal coffee (if someone/somewhere doesn't have decaf) but a maximum of one a day otherwise it will affect my sleep that night; it also gives me a proper coffee buzz for the short period after drinking it.
I had read that the process of decaffeinating coffee involves solvents that are bad for you, so I've avoided that. Maybe I should look into that closer because I certainly do enjoy the taste of good coffee.
I do miss the taste of coffee. When I quit, I thought that I would allow myself the occasional coffee or espresso, but I've been reticent to allow myself the risk of becoming dependent again. I've not tried decaffeinated coffee because of the solvents used in producing it in general.
For the last few years before I quit entirely, I was careful not to have caffeine after lunch or early afternoon. Nonetheless, quitting morning coffee has improved my sleep. I'm 44. I think I became more sensitive to the effect on my sleep as I got older, as I hear is common.
My old co-workers would drink coffee throughout the day and constantly complain about not having enough energy and they would look physically drained. They required it to feel normal. Reminds me very much of people I know who smoke weed to feel normal because they are so used to it.
As another commenter mentioned, not drinking caffeine makes it's effects much stronger when you actually need it. I don't drink tea/coffee/soda/energy drinks etc. So on the rare occasion that I down an energy drink the effect is extremely pronounced. Literally buzzing.
I was drinking 8-10 cups of coffee a day for a couple years, but on the weekends I wouldn't have any and I would be fine. I thankfully did not have averse health problems, but I ended up being put on adderall as my doc thought I might have ADD. I immediately cut my intake to 1, maybe 2 cups a day as anymore would make me sick.
I went off adderall as it was not a great solution, turned out I was mostly miserable and bored at that company. I was trying to keep myself engaged by getting high on caffeine. After quitting, I drink 3-4 cups a day and some days none.
The thing to remember with caffeine is its half-life in non-smokers is 8 hours (it is 3 hours in smokers). I have a rule to never have any drink with caffeine after midday - if I break this rule even by an hour I suffer that night and the next day. Caffine is a morning drug.
This is highly personal, and there's no substitute for experiment. My rule is no (caffeinated) soda within an hour of bedtime, and no coffee within 3-4 hours, so the variation is wide. I don't smoke, by the way.
As an aside, the whole "8 hour half-life" is astonishingly high, to me. Caffeine is nice, but it doesn't seem to have that strong an effect on me, and certainly nothing I notice 5-8 hours after. I drink quite a lot of caffeine these days, but even at times when I went off caffeine for a few weeks, I didn't get effect durations any longer than 1-3 hours.
As you say, the variation is wide. I can drink tea up until about 6pm without any problems, but if I have even one coffee after lunchtime I'm going to be up half the night regretting it.
Depending on the type of tea you drink, this could be due to the calming effects of l-theanine [1] in tea.
I have the genes that extend caffeine half-life. If I drink an American large coffee, I get anxious. I can drink a whole pot or two of green tea and feel a nice lift in mood.
As others have mentioned, any coffee after noon and I can't fall asleep until around 2am. I avoid caffeine most days except for the occasional morning kombucha.
It's the opposite with me. I can have coffee in the late afternoon, in some cases even in the evening, without problems--but if I have a tea after 3 pm or so, I'm sure to have trouble.
Might have something to do with the strength of the tea, though.
There's also a gene that determines if you're a fast or slow metabolizer, I think it affects half life by around a factor of two. 23AndMe checks the associated SNP.
short summary: 200mg at 7 a.m., and going to bed at 11 p.m. had following effect: "Compared to placebo, sleep efficiency and total sleep time were significantly reduced."
Built-up tolerance? After drinking triple espressos like water in university I could drink coffee at 10 pm and still fall asleep an hour later. Of course, I'd wake up feeling more tired than before with a splitting headache, but that's what the triple espressos were for.
For me I've found that it takes a while to take full effect. I normally go to sleep around 9:30. If I drink a cup at 9pm I'll fall asleep okay at 9:30. If I drink a cup at 6pm, I'm going to have problems sleeping.
Excessive use of anything tends to be bad. "Normal" intake of coffee [1] may have plenty of health benefits, so why quit? Because self control?
I'll drink my 3-4 cups of black filtered coffee a day with a good conscience.
[1] Not including other high-caffeine drinks (energy drinks) or mixing your coffee with lots of sugar and milk, which would be bad mostly for other reasons than the caffeine itself.
> For healthy adults, the FDA says 400 mg a day is OK. But consuming much more than that can have dangerous, negative effects. And the milligrams add up quickly. A medium-size coffeehouse coffee can contain more than 300 mg, and most 16-ounce energy drinks contain between 160 and 240 mg of caffeine…
3-4 cups might be on the high end of the safe spectrum, depending on what your idea of a "cup" is. (For the record, 3 half-litre beer steins of coffee a day turned out to be a spectacularly bad idea, even if hearing colours was briefly entertaining.)
> (For the record, 3 half-litre beer steins of coffee a day turned out to be a spectacularly bad idea, even if hearing colours was briefly entertaining.)
I've consumed caffeine to the point of serious gastric distress and very mild heart palpitations and I've never experienced synesthesia. I'm unwilling to push beyond that to higher doses, but two or three 12-cup pots a day of light roast filtered black coffee is about average for me, so what the Hell? Is there just that much individual variation here?
IIRC, the only well documented case of synesthesia is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapheme_%E2%86%92_color_synes... . It's an interesting case because the color and letter recognizing parts of the brain are very close, so it's logic that some info may leak and get correlated.
Perhaps someone can design an (safe) experiment to measure the effect of caffeine in synesthesia ...
There must be. At a previous job, I regularly drank 2L of coffee a day (in ~10oz increments), and never experienced anything other than unpleasant slight jitteriness occasionally.
America! What's a normal-sized coffee there, to compare? Large at Starbucks ("venti") is 20oz (~591ml). The caffeine levels at $ seem to be similar between USA and EU: http://www.caffeineinformer.com/the-complete-guide-to-starbu... but I'm guessing that that's more due to it being such a touristy place. From what I've seen, they use less espresso than "real" coffee shops: http://www.starbucks.co.uk/blog/introducing-our-new-standard... if you've paid attention to espresso machines for whatever reason, you know that most machines make two shots per pull, so typically higher-end places will use either 2 or 4 shots (since that's either 1 or 2 times they need to make espresso for the drink). If they have a large size (16-20oz), I've found that it's common to use 4 shots in that, which is going to be more caffeine than $, possibly by a wide margin.
If you're in the Bay Area and really want to go nuts with your caffeine for whatever reason, Dutch Bros in North Bay / East Bay (usually go there when I'm by Sac) has drinks on their menu with 6 shots: http://dutchbros.com/AboutUs/OurMenu and they're atypically strong per-shot.
> I'll drink my 3-4 cups of black filtered coffee a day with a good conscience.
Sounds similar to what I used to drink. I now drink similar amounts of decaf black coffee a day and sleep a whole lot better. This is partly why I quit and definitely why I won't go back to regularly drinking normal coffee (it's been 6 years or so).
(Yes, I know decaf still contains ~10% of the caffeine of normal coffee, this just means I'm down to the equivalent of half a cup of coffee a day, which is below dependency levels as I get no withdrawal effects if I stop this for a few days.)
Many of those 'alarming' articles are mainly studying the point from where the use of anything is dangerous for our health. It is easy to get the numbers and to publish, and the website gets a clickbait.
It's widely knew that too much coffee is dangerous. But a normal dose has plenty of benefits, and a lot of research supports both points.
Cool, thanks. Some of those studies seem to find protective benefits with decaf. Or there wasn't enough data to know if the same effects are present with decaf.
> Most studies did not include data on decaffeinated coffee, either because too few people drank it or because data were not available. The few studies that did, though, had differing results. With respect to cardiovascular disease, decaffeinated coffee did not seem to have the same protective effects as regular coffee. With respect to the one stroke meta-analysis, it seemed to be just as protective as regular coffee. In two breast cancer analyses, decaffeinated had the same nonrelationship as regular coffee. Decaffeinated coffee was also protective against lung cancer, not as protective against Parkinson’s disease, and protective against diabetes and overall mortality, but perhaps to a lesser extent than regular coffee.
> But for most studies, there just aren’t data available. The conclusion to take away: There’s less evidence overall for a potential benefit, but still, there’s no evidence of harmful associations.
1) Dark roast coffee has less caffeine and is (in my subjective opinion) tastier. So if one wants the taste of coffee without less of the effects, consider an espresso or a Turkish coffee. The latter is just called "coffee" in much of Eastern Europe, one can pick up a beautiful cezve on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3D...
2) Yerba Mate is 75 mg of caffeine per serving: higher than tea, but less than coffee. Can be made in an French Press or a tea pot and served like conventional tea.
3) Caffeine gum: not particularly pleasant to chew, but comes in a more precise dose (100mg) and is "kicks in" faster.
Personally, I'd like to see more genetic studies on this: I am not particularly affected by caffeine: I've never experienced withdrawals (despite consuming caffeine heavily -- from coffee and energy drinks for a long period of time) nor do I see coffee raise itself in potency after a week or two of abstinence. This is different for others and I would really like to understand why.
Different people react differently. For a variety of conditions, I take moderate doses of opioids (tramadol 50mg qds or codeine 60mg qds) and benzodiazepines (tamazepam 20mg daily), both of which are well-known to cause dependence. I've abruptly stopped both a number of times (strongest example - going without the tramadol for three months, after taking that dose for over six months) without any ill effects or withdrawal (other than the original conditions returning to about the same as they were before treatment).
My caffeine usage has varied quite a bit. At one point I was drinking a cup of coffee in the morning, some caffeinated drink during the day, and then tea in the evening, around seven o'clock. When I was eating a college dining hall diet, I was drinking a caffeinated soda with every meal, plus coffee in the morning, and tea (mostly green) on average once per day. These days I hardly drink any caffeine. The transitions between these patterns have always been abrupt, and I've never felt drowsy or had a craving or headaches or anything following a reduction of caffeine consumption.
As a kid I was taking 30mg amphetamine daily, which I stopped taking abruptly and had no withdrawal (I did eat a huge amount in the days following, but the drug was causing me to not eat and lose weight). I had been taking it for about 6 months. Later I was taking 54mg methylphenidate 5 days/week for about two years, and I stopped taking it abruptly and again experienced no withdrawal symptoms.
Headaches (the most frequent symptom my wife experiences, as do my friends), excessive sleepiness, exhaustion, shaking hands, etc...
It's possible, however, that I may have been slightly more tired, but beyond the threshold of noticing this; or slightly slower reaction times. This isn't a scientific study.
Just a few thoughts to add. Living in the Pacific Northwest, home of Starbucks and a bunch more vendors, caffeinism is nearly a way of life. Around here it's pretty easy to find examples of the effects of overdoing caffeine intake, so my comments are based partly on observation as well as "standard" practice.
Caffeine, like all drugs affects people differently and can cause an array of side-effects. , Besides interfering with sleep, a few are worth mentioning.
Caffeine can cause increase in gastric reflux or other GI conditions. Anyone who needs "acid reducers" is well-advised to avoid caffeine. Caffeine is also notorious for increasing anxiety symptoms, those prone to panic attacks may be more vulnerable. Cardiac effects are also a potential issue, as caffeine can contribute to abnormally rapid heart rhythms. Naturally as always mileage varies, universal rules don't really exist.
If a person has such conditions, no harm in reducing or avoiding caffeine for a while. If the problem improves, then you know what to do, if not, well, resolving the problem is going to require at least a bit more investigation.
I've used occasions when I had the flu to quit, figuring that I feel shitty anyway, so the withdrawal symptoms won't matter that much.
Of course eventually I took it up again - unfortunately after a couple of weeks of withdrawal, it tastes really good.
But what fascinates me is that being easy to quit might be part of why it is hard to quit. It's easy to say "heck, I'll quit tomorrow, it is so easy after all".
Quitting an addiction is easy, any junkie can do it... several times a day ;)
I went cold-turkey a few years ago, lasted several months, helped immensely with palpitations and sleep-pattern problems. In fact, I should probably do it again at some point this year, but with kids and work it becomes difficult to plan the inevitable couple of weeks of "zombie time". Maybe doctors should start considering it a real addiction, justifying off-time for treatment.
I've mostly switched to caffeine pills when I need caffeine (which varies, usually I try to go caffeine free). For me I find 100mg is a good amount, though if I could find 50mg pills I would try that. My preferred source is "jet alert" since I couldn't really find anything else that wasn't just 200mg.
Also, I always use an L-theanine supplement when I take caffeine, it's amazing how much it changes things. Instead of feeling all jittery and agitated I just feel less tired and more alert. This is roughly the equivalent of just drinking strong green tea.
I am in the UK and here it is quite easy to get 50mg pills in any chemist.
The most common brand seems to be Pro Plus but they cost a bit so I shopped around and found cheaper generic brands on Amazon.
The cheaper brands (apparently intended for sports) come in 200mg pills which I break in half with a knife.
These work fine, but one thing I discovered is that I need to remember to drink water as some of the symptoms of dehydration are similar to caffeine withdrawal.
I've cut out a ton of foods in my life to fix various issues with my body. Sugar is one that remains because it causes me no ill effect. Caffeine was giving me withdrawal headaches if I slept in and missed my schedule.
On the flip side, I get tend to get inflammation when I consume too many added sugars. This usually manifests as joint pain, headaches, and breakouts. It has forced me to have a much healthier diet. Thanks for sharing your insights!
I'm one of those weird people for whom caffeine doesn't really seem to do anything. My normal daily consumption of the stuff is zero, because I don't drink coffee or tea. Every now and again if I have an essay crisis after a bad night's sleep, I'll pop three or four times the "don't take more than this" dosage of Pro Plus, which seems to have a fairly minor effect. It has been a few months since I last did this.
If you want to give it up, and are a coder, find a few days when you don't need to code. I tried a few times, and always went back to it because my code sucked for a few days. I finally kicked the habit only about a month ago, when I decided to do it during a week-long testing effort with minimal new coding to worry about.
And the same as many others have said... I sleep better, feel better, etc, etc.
Caffeine has such a strong effect on me (physically and psychologically), I can even tell its effect in some (not fully) decaffeinated coffees. This started one day, I've been a regular drinker before. Since then, almost only decaf.
I am lucky to have a nervous disorder that keeps me from drinking caffeine. Any amount and I get a headache. I can even tell how much is in something by the intensity of my headache. It is surprising how many things have caffeine.
The worst soft drink is orange soda. There were orange soda ads many years ago that used the Beach Boy's "Good
Vibrations".
This discussion about coffee has become too scientific. When I was a child, my parents would not let us drink coffee, but tea was not only allowed it was part of daily routine as long as I remember. We didn't question. When I grew up someone told me the story about two life-term prisoners in medieval times, one of them allowed to drink only tea, the other coffee. The coffee-guy lived longer. That was enough for me to stake my rights and start drinking coffee in high school.
If you're basing decisions off a single anecdotal* data point from "medieval times", I can see how anything else would seem "too scientific" in comparison.
If you want to drink coffee, drink coffee. Using a goofball medieval study (with a sample size of literally 2 people) to justify your personal choice is pretty silly.
Your problem with sample size in this particular case is that you fail to account for its duration. Convert sample size to temporal units and you might draw different conclusions since p-values might not look as bad now. An average FDA trial is 3 years, so assuming the prisoners lived for 40 years on their prescribed caffeine diet, you get sample size of 2*40/3 = 26.7. Not bad for 17th century. Last but not least, turn off --verbose mode.
This fallacy is known as "pseudoreplication": the erroneous belief that multiple samples (or a long measurement) of dependent data (i.e. the same person year after year) is equivalent to getting many independent samples.
If you measure the same two people year after year, you just measure their genetic predispositions and personal habits more and more precisely. You cannot distinguish them from the results of your coffee/tea intervention.
In case of caffeine addiction tests, I would argue that a life-long trial of fewer people over a short-term trial of many people would produce more statistically significant results because the impact is accumulative over a long period of time. Consider asbestos or even smoking. Compare the results of 10 lifelong smokers vs 1000 smokers who tried it just once.
Anyways, did you read the article on wikipedia? The prisoners were twins and their rations was the same - 3 intakes per day.
The goal of a trial is to eliminate other possible explanations for the phenomenon in question. You take a large sample, and randomly assign people to groups, so all the idiosyncratic variations average out.
With only one person per group, you can't eliminate many possible reasons for their differing life spans: one may have caught a disease the other was not exposed to, they may have had different nutrition, different amounts of exercise, different habits, a zillion other things.
After all, do other twins die at exactly the same time? No. They die years apart for many other reasons. Unless this twin experiment could eliminate all those possible reasons, it shows us nothing about coffee specifically.
Are you seriously comparing an FDA trial to a 17th century trial? If you don't see the absurdity of trying to equate the quality of those two I don't know what to tell you, setting aside your idea that a "26.7" sample size would be anywhere near significant enough to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion.
Interesting. How did you determine that there were not other factors at play that caused the outcome of the one prisoner who drank coffee to live longer?
Frankly, it was a lot harder than I thought it would be. I was plagued with minor but persistent headaches for almost a month and was exhausted most of that time since I was used to grabbing a cup of coffee to get me started in the morning. I avoided caffeine for almost 15 years until about a year ago when I finally found a medicine that has successfully prevented Migraine (completely). Now and then I enjoy a cup of coffee (or a Coke -- I'm a skinny guy) but I've not gotten to the point of it being a regular thing.
The difference is huge. I am convinced that Caffeine is a much more powerful stimulant than we coffee drinkers think it is. When I am feeling tired, a cup of coffee will completely wake me up and I'm full of energy. I can't see how I managed to drink two of these every morning and still barely feel the effects. If I have two cups now, I'm overwhelmed with jittery feelings, my mind races, and I go from the heightened concentration of one cup to not being able to concentrate at all due to my mind going in every direction at once.