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I'm so happy I have no debt.

Had $20k of student debt at one point. After that experience, I decided to live mostly without debt.

The only exception might be a mortgage of 25-33% of a house value, I'd put 75-66% in cash.



You're very lucky, I'd say.

Someone who can put up 66-75% for a desirable home generally is.


It would be about a $200k house in a low-medium cost of living area.

Or, a $150k empty lot and $50k house (with a later $50k-$100k expansion via cash, once the cash is earned)


I realize this is hypothetical, but I’d run the numbers before putting that much down… If you do 20%, you can put the rest in an index fund which will probably earn more than the interest rate on the loan. (Though at this point it’s going to be close.)


IMO the real value of a high leverage mortgage is that you can buy sooner.

Saving even 20% ($100k) could take many people 5 years. so saving 60% would take 15. Part of the trade off is life momentum. We can't be spending 15 years with life goals/dreams on hold, renting means a lot of moving, being subject to landlords' whims, and generally being treated as commodity cattle for profit.


> We can't be spending 15 years with life goals/dreams on hold, renting means a lot of moving, being subject to landlords' whims, and generally being treated as commodity cattle for profit.

This is reality for a lot of people.


Renting is also a better deal for a lot of people (no building maintenance, no special assessments, flexibility to move around more, etc). The idea that home ownership is a good investment is a crapshoot at best and a myth at worst. It works out well for some people, but they may have done even better renting and investing in equities. I say this as a homeowner who (perhaps irrationally) likes the idea of owning a home.


The context of my reply was putting life dreams on hold, which for many people means children and family. While renting might have strict financial advantages (although not in any of the popular metros in the last 20 years), having peace of mind of not having to move and your kids being in the same school is worth quite a bit.

And the federal US government does quite a bit of wealth transfer to homeowners, which comes from non homeowners obviously, so renting being better than buying is only true for certain circumstances.


It all comes down to what you value—there are millions of families renting in US cities, who obviously did not feel they needed to put their dreams on hold.

Although property values have gone up quite a bit in desirable neighborhoods, it's not at all uniform. Condos in particular have had a bad ~5 years, even in good neighborhoods in big cities.


The challenge is separating the two oft intertwined thoughts of what's financially optimal, and what is lifestyle desirable.

We often use an argument in one area to justify a poor choice in another. It's fine to make a financially suboptimal choice to rent/buy (as is the case) to acquire a desirable lifestyle. Just as it's financially optimal to walk everywhere, but in reality we want to drive a car (and maybe a fancy one at that). It's when we start to say "This home is an investment, so I'll buy a $EXPENSIVE home"... that simply burdens us with high expenses relative to the lifestyle gains and we've actually done the opposite of good investing, for little lifestyle gained over a moderate home.


I'd argue renting is best for those who aren't looking to stay in a place longer than 5 years. If you're sticking to the community for 10+ years, its evident to purchase a home/condo.


I dunno. I bought my house in 2018 for 400k and now it's being appraised at 550k and I'm planning to sell and buy a house elsewhere with my girlfriend.

Pretty lucky for sure, but even if the increase wasn't this dramatic it would have still been better than renting...


Btw this a fallacy/bad accounting that many home owners fall into.

Most say $550K sale price minus $400K purchase price == $150K profit.

But you need to remove: Taxes, maintenance, cost of your time (if you value that at all), realtors fees, HOA, bank fees/insurance, home insurance, depreciation on purchases you only had because of home ownership (tools, lawn mower etc).

Once you remove those it's hard for home ownership to make financial sense relative to investing in the stock market + renting.

However, and this is discussed in another thread, homeownership is a lifestyle choice, and we should be ok with making financially suboptimal choices for the sake of a quality life. We just need to keep clear it's an expense for a purpose, not an investment for financial gain. If we overspend on house liability it's no different than overspending on cars or food or travel.


There is absolutely no way that all of the other costs of owning a home is approaching anywhere near the amount I am getting out of it.

Yeah, it's not a pure 150k return but it's still vastly larger than any other investment I could have made in 2018. It's not even close.

Calling this a "financially suboptimal choice" is nonsense.


$150K "Profit"

Scenario : 400K home, $40k Down, 2 years ownership, using a realtor, getting 7% loan (today's reality, maybe not yours)

* $14688 Closing costs -- according to nerd wallet on a 400k house w/ 10% down

* ~$33K Interest -- $500K on 30 yr loadaverage is 50% interest per payment across the whole loan (much worse in first 2 years)

* $25K Realtor commissions on sale (using conservative 5%)

* $8K Maintenance - 1% per year is a standard rule of thumb

* $8K Taxes - using national average on Smart Asset https://smartasset.com/taxes/property-taxes#2YWD4iYqn0

* $1K HOA

* 10K Downpayment + $24K equity portion of payments are Return of Capital (not profit)

Net profit = ~30K profit in 2 years.


You're double counting the down payment and equity payment. It doesn't count against the profit of the simple $150k number unless you lower the mortgage balance which would increase the $150k to $214k.


Another way to look at it is that even with your numbers, a 40k investment was turned into 1.25k monthly dividend vs. -2k month or so in rent (rough number based on house price).


Yeah, that's what I was thinking too.

You're not just 30k up from where you were two years ago

You're also up 78k from where you would be today if you had been renting at 2k/month those two years instead


It makes a lot of financial sense when it's leveraged. That fictional 150k profit was on 5-20% down of the purchase price, plus the payments made until sale. If you live in it for 2 years you avoid capital gains taxes, and if you go the other route of renting it out you deduct expenses.


You have to look beyond the interest rate. If you have a 2.5% rate, your mortgage will inflate away while you could be earning 8-12% returns.

If your mortgage rate is 6%, your marginal tax rate is 50% and you're earning 4-8% returns after tax, then a risk free, tax free return of 6% by paying off your mortgage is more attractive.


Unless it doesn't, of course. Viewed from this perspective, putting more cash down so as to lower your mortgage is effectively an investment with a guaranteed X% return, where X% is the interest rate on your mortgage.

I realise that on average the index fund is likely to outperform it over the long run, but a lot will depend on your attitude to risk.


Yes, true—the difference is, if the market stagnates you can take money out of the index fund and apply it to your mortgage at any time, whereas if you do a large down payment upfront, you can't change your mind later.


Isn't that what remortgaging is?


Sort of, but you have no guarantee that you can get a comparable rate.


this depends on the rates. with high interest rates, if they have bad credit and get a rate 7% or higher for a mortgage, it may be better to put more down. historical average is 7% over. long period of time (30 years). if OP thinks refinancing into a low rate isn't an option 10 years from now, lower mortgage may be the way to go


Not all debt is bad. I have enough cash to buy a car, but the manufacturer was willing to give me a loan at 0% interest. I pay for as many things as possible on my credit cards and then pay them off every time I get paid while accumulating rewards. There are tax benefits to having a mortgage, and the loan is backed by the house; it is usually a far better situation than renting.

On the other hand, taking out massive loans (several times what you had) for education is questionable in most cases. I've known people who are reasonably intelligent who think it is a good idea to send their children to private universities with high tuition for undergrad degrees in fields that the school isn't known for, which I find baffling.


> The only exception might be a mortgage of 25-33% of a house value, I'd put 75-66% in cash.

Can you explain your rationality for this? You're still allowing the bank to have senior ownership of your house except... for less money.

If you default, they keep your house, no matter what the debt-to-value is.

Like, I understand saying "I couldn't make my mortgage payments so the bank took the house, but I guess they did pay for 90% of it".

But this seems like all the insecurity of a mortgage for a lot less money?


The bank doesn't "keep" your house, they foreclose on it and sell it. Once they sell your home, any liens and associated costs are satisfied and the remainder of the money is given to the borrower.


If the value of the house has increased...


No, any value outside of what is owed to the bank.

If you take out a 300k mortgage and pay it down to 150k principle then default, the bank sells it for 250k and gives you 100k (minus associated costs).


i like my 2.8% mortgage in a high inflation environment.


Me too! And the fact that it's lower than any decent rental in my area.


Can't beat a $1,200$ a month mortgage on a 150k salary most of the time. I guess I'll never move. lol


Owning a house is almost always cheaper than renting, at least in terms of mortgage payment vs. rent payment.




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